IN> (no subject)

[Kelly Pedersen]

On 7/23/06, James Walker <nyungan at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 22:50:50 -0600
> > From: "Kelly Pedersen" <kelly.pedersen at gmail.com>
>
> Yep. From my time as a cub leader, my guess is that
> about half of all cubs would hapily sell their souls
> for..well, anything really, possibly just for the joy
> of horrifying their parents.



That still doesn't answer the question of whether or not it's considered a
free choice. Basic ethical theory suggests that to truly make a free choice,
one must not only be uncoerced, one must be capable of understanding the
consequences of the choice made. That's why we have laws about statutory
rape - a thirteen-year-old may very well *think* they want to have sex, but
society believes that they can't properly evaluate the consquences, so
anyone who can understand the consequences, and still participates in the
act with them, is guilty of rape.
Now, In Nomine canon is silent, as far as I can tell, on whether or not God
considers the choice of a child to be truly free. I can't recall any
examples of children fulfilling Destinies or Fates that would require an
adult level of understanding. However, absent contrary evidence, I'd rule,
as a GM that things like the Oathtaking ritual would just "slide off" a ten
year old, no matter how enthusiastically they signed the paper.


He does - every 111 is God taking part.



Other degrees of intervention are possible. God has done so on a few
occaisions since the fall, most obviously affecting the angels, but possibly
in the formation of some of the Divine religions. If I was a canny Demon
Prince, I would be opposed to testing God's willingness to intervene.


Besides, the
> demons know that they'll have to fight God sooner or
> later.



Do they, though? The official "party line" of Hell is apparently that God no
longer exists. However, I think most Demon Princes don't feel like testing
the subject.


The DPs are getting at least one demon
> for every 2 humans they break down,



However, this apparently costs Essence. While DPs have *lots* of Essence,
they don't have *infinite* Essence. Note that there are at least millions of
humans in canon Hell, and most of them are un-broken down, so obviously the
DPs don't think this is a very cost-effective tactic right now. Also, the
number of souls *in Hell* might be a concern for the DPs. While one demon
might be a match for three or four humans, swarm tactics can still take them
down. And in this scenario, we have orders of magnitude more human souls in
Hell, many of whom are going to be only mildly selfish and evil, unlike the
current batch, which can be relied on to be *very* selfish and unlikely to
band together. If I was a forward-thinking DP, I'd be *very* worried about a
slave revolt in this sort of situation.


this is something Heaven is willing to
> > start the Final War over.
> And Hell laughs and jeers. If Heaven has the muscle to
> threaten Hell, the war is over.



Not nessecarily. While Heaven doesn't *know* it will win an attack against
Hell, it also doesn't know it will lose. Two things keep Heaven, in canon,
from an all-out assault on Hell:
1) The Archangels, on the whole, are willing to wait on God's will for
Armaggedon - they'll wait for the Seven Trumps. But this is barring extreme
provocation from Hell.
2) The aforementioned uncertainty - right now, Heaven doesn't want to risk a
possibly-losing battle against Hell, because it isn't worth the risk. They
can keep Hellish activity on Earth down to acceptable levels without
invading Hell. But this scenario is practically the definition of
"non-acceptable levels".



Besides, the story doesn't end when the kids get the
> Infernal Force. They've been well rewarded for
> choosing evil - and get to bully the poor kids who
> chose not to - so are likely to continue merrily down
> a path of evil for the rest of their lives.



True, the Infernal force makes them more likely to be unpleasant. But *some*
children will die immediately after getting the force, just from
cooincidence. Some will rise above the force, and achieve their Destiny, or
at least lead a good life. And Heaven has the Angels of Final Justice
exactly *because* they're willing to start the Final War rather than let an
undeserving soul go into Hell. That's why Final Justice can stand *at the
Gates of Hell* and be unmolested by demons - because Hell knows that if the
Angels were attacked, the War would begin - and they're obviously unwilling
to risk that.


-- 
Odium ludo non ludatori
- Cicero