[gurps] Re: GurpsNet-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 15

Tue Sep 26 13:20:03 CDT 2006

On 9/26/06, gurpsnet-l-request at sjgames.com
<gurpsnet-l-request at sjgames.com> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. [3e] Increasing the RoF of some shotguns (Brandon Cope)
>    2. re: [3e] Increasing the RoF of some shotguns (David Scheidt)
>    3. re: [3e] Increasing the RoF of some shotguns (Kurt Feltenberger)
>    4. Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED) (Maxwell C. Dancer)
>    5. Re: Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED) (Chris J. Whitcomb)
>    6. Re: Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED) (Eric B. Smith)
>    7. Re: Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED) (Roger Burton West)
>    8. Re: Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED) (Syndaryl)
>    9. Re: Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED) (Jay P. Hailey)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:31:18 -0500
> From: Brandon Cope <copeab at hyperhog.net>
> Subject: [gurps] [3e] Increasing the RoF of some shotguns
> To: GURPSnet <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID: <451858B6.A148817A at hyperhog.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Slide(pump)-action shotguns have a RoF of 2~, while semi-automatics are
> 3~. However, there were some slide-action shotguns built (eg, Winchester
> M1897) that lacked a trigger disconnect. What this meant was that if the
> trigger was held back, operating the slide not only chambered a round
> but fired it; this meant that such a shotgun could be fired as fast as
> one could operate the pump.
>
> Now, the question is, should this have any game effects? My initial
> thoughts are to apply a -2 to Guns (Shotgun), halve Acc and increase RoF
> to 3~ (sort of a compromise between the rules for Fanning and Slipping
> the Hammer for single-action revolvers).
> --
> A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope
> http://www.geocities.com/copeab
>
> "It has fallen upon me, now and again in my sojurns through the world,
> to ease various evil men of their lives. I have a feeling it will prove
> thus with the Baron."
> -- Solomon Kane ("The Castle of the Devil", Robert E. Howard)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:04:24 -0400
> From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> Subject: re: [gurps] [3e] Increasing the RoF of some shotguns
> To: "The GURPSnet mailing list" <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID:
>         <2400a5d40609251604l2d32d66fg8cbf1b4fce3dd006 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Brandon Cope <copeab at hyperhog.net>
> Date: Sep 25, 2006 6:31 PM
> Subject: [gurps] [3e] Increasing the RoF of some shotguns
> To: GURPSnet <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
>
>
> Slide(pump)-action shotguns have a RoF of 2~, while semi-automatics are
> 3~. However, there were some slide-action shotguns built (eg, Winchester
> M1897) that lacked a trigger disconnect. What this meant was that if the
> trigger was held back, operating the slide not only chambered a round
> but fired it; this meant that such a shotgun could be fired as fast as
> one could operate the pump.
>
> Now, the question is, should this have any game effects? My initial
> thoughts are to apply a -2 to Guns (Shotgun), halve Acc and increase RoF
> to 3~ (sort of a compromise between the rules for Fanning and Slipping
> the Hammer for single-action revolvers).
>
> Given that game mechanics suggest that people can pull the trigger
> three times a second, it shouldn't make any difference; working the
> slide is already the limiting factor.  That doesn't jibe with reality,
> though.  I've shot an Ithaca shotgun without a trigger disconnect in
> "slam firing" mode.  Not using a stopwatch, it did seem like I could
> fire it a bit faster.  I couldn't hit anything, though.  Some of that
> was that I wasn't quite sure when the gun was going to fire -- it was
> firing before the full return of the slide; some would have been
> recoil, 12 ga slugs kick.
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:22:17 -0400
> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt at blazenet.net>
> Subject: re: [gurps] [3e] Increasing the RoF of some shotguns
> To: The GURPSnet mailing list <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060925191736.0ba691f0 at blazenet.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="0"; format=flowed
>
> At 07:04 PM 9/25/2006, you wrote:
> >Now, the question is, should this have any game effects? My initial
> >thoughts are to apply a -2 to Guns (Shotgun), halve Acc and increase RoF
> >to 3~ (sort of a compromise between the rules for Fanning and Slipping
> >the Hammer for single-action revolvers).
>
> In the grand scheme of things, I'd not give it any bonus.  The
> difference is imperceptible and you still have recoil to deal with.
>
> >Given that game mechanics suggest that people can pull the trigger
> >three times a second,
>
> Someone with minimal training should get three shots a second.  With
> a couple days of training and about 1000 - 2000 rounds to practice
> with, you should easily be able to get quarter seconds
> splits.  Getting .2 second splits takes more work, but it can be done.
>
> >  it shouldn't make any difference; working the
> >slide is already the limiting factor.  That doesn't jibe with reality,
> >though.  I've shot an Ithaca shotgun without a trigger disconnect in
> >"slam firing" mode.  Not using a stopwatch, it did seem like I could
> >fire it a bit faster.  I couldn't hit anything, though.  Some of that
> >was that I wasn't quite sure when the gun was going to fire -- it was
> >firing before the full return of the slide; some would have been
> >recoil, 12 ga slugs kick.
>
> See if you can find someone with a timer and have it time how long it
> takes you to go through a magazine full of ammo.  Timers are the
> single best item to bring reality into your training and assessment
> of what you can and can't do.  Being able to hit the target is still
> the most important skill, but you also need to know how quickly you
> can draw to first shot, and then what your shot to shot splits are
> while firing.
>
>
>
> Kurt Feltenberger
> kurt at blazenet.net
> TEOTWAWKI Fiction and Chat http://www.teotwawki.net
>
> "To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
>       may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
> ~Stephen Decatur
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:42:56 +1200
> From: "Maxwell C. Dancer" <gurpsnet-l at deltaL.org>
> Subject: [gurps] Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED)
> To: GURPS mail list <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID: <1159234976.1926.81.camel at equinox>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> A little question of logistics, how does one convert a character made
> partly with (GURPS 3rd ED) Vampire the Masquerade to to GURPS 4th ED.
>
> The disciplines are the problems I am considering, as the rest of GURPS
> isn't to hard to move from one to another, but how about things like
> Vicissitude (GURPS Vampire The Massquerade Companion VTMc117) etc.
>
> The simple augmenting disciplines (Celerity VTM101, Fortitude VTM103, &
> Potence VTM105) probably aren't to much of a challenge, it is a limited
> increase with may or may not need an activation trigger whihc taks
> energy/blood to limit the number of uses).  That shouldf be able to be
> worked out though I would be very happy if somebody was to post there
> opinion on the 4th ED mechanics of Fortitude).
>
> The more complex to decide, and I am thinking woud need to be done power
> at a time are the other displines. The example I was wanting was
> Vicissitude, how much would cost, and what would be the 4th Ed
> mechanincs for the likes of Changeling, Flesh/bone craft, Horrid Form
> (just a second form?) and Inner Essence. Can these be reworked using
> GURPS Powers and still in aprox the same cost scale, or are they just
> going to be lots more costly?
>
> Opinions, examples?
>
> (Any word on if they will bother with a 4th ED Masquerade? While it is
> mainly a setting, there are some mechanics which would be nice to be
> formailised)
>
> Max.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 01:53:28 -0500
> From: "Chris J. Whitcomb" <rekres at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gurps] Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED)
> To: "The GURPSnet mailing list" <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID: <00f701c6e13a$71dc3ed0$9f009e04 at WhitcombDelta>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>         reply-type=original
>
> Maxwell C. Dancer wrote:
> >
> > (Any word on if they will bother with a 4th ED Masquerade? While it is
> > mainly a setting, there are some mechanics which would be nice to be
> > formailised)
>
> Without any actual "insider" information, I would have to say there's next
> to zero chance of it happening.  First, SJGames would have to get the
> license once again from White Wolf.  Second, White Wolf has 'ended' the
> original World of Darkness series and re-booted the games.... I doubt they'd
> consider licensing a gameline they are no longer supporting.
>
> Vampire the Requiem is similar in some ways to the original Vampire the
> Masquerade but the background story and much of the rule-mechanics have been
> redone.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 04:09:44 -0400
> From: "Eric B. Smith" <eric.frogkiller at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gurps] Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED)
> To: "The GURPSnet mailing list" <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID: <003d01c6e143$318695c0$650aa8c0 at Me>
>
> Chris J. Whitcomb banged his head on the keyboard resulting in:
> > Maxwell C. Dancer wrote:
> >>
> >> (Any word on if they will bother with a 4th ED Masquerade? While it
> >> is mainly a setting, there are some mechanics which would be nice to
> >> be formailised)
> >
> > Without any actual "insider" information, I would have to say there's
> > next to zero chance of it happening.
>
> "Next to zero chance" is being optimistic. The original plan was to have
> 2 GURPS books for each of the 5 original World of Darkness settings
> (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, Changeling). The contract was broken after
> only 4 books were produced due to irreconcilable differences between the two
> companies. I doubt either would ever consider working together on any
> project of this type ever again.
>
> Steve Jackson did decide to post an open letter on Usenet regarding the
> breakup:
> SJ Flames White Wolf For Bad-Faith Behavior
> http://groups.google.com/group/io.games.sjg.gurps/msg/511f6282403667bc?&hl=en
>
> And Stephan Wieck responded:
> An Open Letter from Stephan Wieck, President:White Wolf, Inc.
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.whitewolf/msg/4b75ae9525a52d4e?hl=en
>
> --
> Eric B. Smith                   http://www.geocities.com/ericbsmith
> GURPS Data File Coordinator
>
> "Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from
> the subjects of it. The history of liberty is a history of resistance." -
> Woodrow Wilson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:31:03 +0100
> From: Roger Burton West <roger at firedrake.org>
> Subject: Re: [gurps] Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED)
> To: The GURPSnet mailing list <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID: <20060926083103.GA13478 at firedrake.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2006 at 01:42:56PM +1200, Maxwell C. Dancer wrote:
>
> >The disciplines are the problems I am considering, as the rest of GURPS
> >isn't to hard to move from one to another, but how about things like
> >Vicissitude (GURPS Vampire The Massquerade Companion VTMc117) etc.
>
> I suspect that GURPS Thaumatology will help, since it's going to include
> an updated version of Ritual Magic.
>
> If you want to build it with standard GURPS advantages and
> disadvantages, though, it shouldn't be too hard.
>
> Fleshcraft -> Elastic Skin
> Plasmic Form -> Injury Tolerance (Diffuse) + Infiltration
> Breath of the Dragon -> Innate Attack
>
> and so on. Remember that you can bind any advantage or disadvantage into
> an Affliction to use it on other people. This is all going to get very
> expensive in points, but that's only fair.
>
> If you're a Pyramid subscriber, I suspect you'll find RPK's article on
> rebuilding 3e-style Psionics very useful:
> http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/article.html?id=5766
>
> R
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:45:46 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Syndaryl <smirle4498 at rogers.com>
> Subject: Re: [gurps] Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED)
> To: The GURPSnet mailing list <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID: <20060926134547.72165.qmail at web88010.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> --- "Maxwell C. Dancer" <gurpsnet-l at deltaL.org> wrote:
> > Can these be reworked using
> > GURPS Powers and still in aprox the same cost scale, or are they just
> > going to be lots more costly?
>
> I would suggest you assume a starting vampire will be VASTLY more
> costly than their 3e versions. In the 500-800 point range would be my
> guestimate based on some tinkering that's been done both by myself and
> by various people on the forums.
>
> Frankly, the 3e versions were badly done, and not balanced with the
> rest of GURPS - done under vanilla 3e the basic vampire package should
> have been an extra 100-200 odd points, and most of the disciplines were
> seriously underpriced.
>
> Emily
>
> --
> Emily Smirle
> Zwischen Leber und Milz, passt immer noch eine Pils.
> Denn wo frueher mal die Leber war, ist heute eine Mini-Bar.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:02:12 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Jay P. Hailey" <jayphailey at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [gurps] Newage Vampire (3rd ED to 4th ED)
> To: The GURPSnet mailing list <gurpsnet-l at sjgames.com>
> Message-ID: <20060926170212.36222.qmail at web42210.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> > "Next to zero chance" is being optimistic.
>
> That sounds pretty ugly.  Thanks for posting it
> though.
>
> mental note - "get it in writing"
>
> Jay ~Meow!~
>
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> End of GurpsNet-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 15
> ******************************************
>

Fortitude I've handled as varying levels of Injury Tolerance,  Extra
HP, and less levels of Weakness to Sunlight and/or removing the
Fragile: Combustible disad that I normally start them with.
Bulletproof vampires just seems a bit off to me.

Vicissitude is mad, wicked expensive.  I handle it as a Vicissitude
Power, and let the player buy cool new abilities as he advances in it,
piecemeal.

-- 
"Broke my sitar, motherfucker..."